Both Ray and Bob have salient points/perspectives. It would be interesting - if possible - to 'war game' the two according to their posts to see if either one has a clear advantage over the other...
Bob likely wins; I've observed that people respond favorably to logical fallacies, especially if there's an us-vs.-them undertone. As I've seen more than one astute thinker articulate, most people seem more interested in pursuing external validation than actual truth.
There certainly is a popular addiction to logical fallacies. Maybe the "vs." is the catalyst, the addictive agent, like nicotine in cigarettes. 'External validation,' the soothing stroking of the ego and vanity, has more lasting satisfaction than a standing ovation.
BW: I've written letters to the City Council, attended city council meetings, protested at City Hall, hell, years ago I even had a couple beers with Dave Hagele (he's also from Lincoln, NE) and talked about city business. Dave is still on the City Council ten years later.
All for nought! As a wise man here in town told me years ago, "Those clowns down at City Hall are gonna do what they're gonna do."
He was right.
So, now, like Ray, I practice Civil Disobedience but mostly I practice Hikikimori (withdraw from society.)
I'm much more of a Ray than a Bob, in no small part because of what you asked for: "with fewer ad hominems."
Both Ray and Bob have salient points/perspectives. It would be interesting - if possible - to 'war game' the two according to their posts to see if either one has a clear advantage over the other...
Bob likely wins; I've observed that people respond favorably to logical fallacies, especially if there's an us-vs.-them undertone. As I've seen more than one astute thinker articulate, most people seem more interested in pursuing external validation than actual truth.
There certainly is a popular addiction to logical fallacies. Maybe the "vs." is the catalyst, the addictive agent, like nicotine in cigarettes. 'External validation,' the soothing stroking of the ego and vanity, has more lasting satisfaction than a standing ovation.
BW: I've written letters to the City Council, attended city council meetings, protested at City Hall, hell, years ago I even had a couple beers with Dave Hagele (he's also from Lincoln, NE) and talked about city business. Dave is still on the City Council ten years later.
All for nought! As a wise man here in town told me years ago, "Those clowns down at City Hall are gonna do what they're gonna do."
He was right.
So, now, like Ray, I practice Civil Disobedience but mostly I practice Hikikimori (withdraw from society.)
Practice makes Perfect...